Dan Edlebeck from Sei Labs


Hi everyone. Welcome to a new poolside podcast session where we come together to share knowledge and experiences with the community in an informal and conversational way. Thank you all for joining us. My name is Cate, I'm your hosts for this session and on this episode and together with our guests, we will explore the future of finance with say network sector specifically one blockchain specializes in trading. So today we have with us Dan Edlebeck head of ecosystem at Sei Labs. Welcome then. Thanks so much appreciate you having me. Set it to have this space today.

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Okay, so everyone who's listening, don't forget that you will be able to claim an exclusive OAT for the first 300 submitted valid emails. So after the session sign up to Galco to grab your OAT. First of all, then, could you please introduce yourself? Yeah, no. Thanks a lot. So I'm leading our ecosystem at sei labs. And we're helping to build out Sei which is the first sector specific layer one blockchain optimized for exchanges and trading. And I am leading ecosystem at Sei. And I've been working in crypto since really early 20, early 2017 and have been working in the cosmos for the past little over three years now. Previously led Sentinel. And I've led marketing and growth at several different crypto projects. And I'm really excited about we're building it say and


yeah, I think that we're providing kind of key infrastructure for DeFi to have its next evolution. And how did you get into crypto, I did my undergrad in marketing and management. We graduated in 09 and spent the first half of my career really in the social impact and nonprofit space. In Chicago, I worked for a nonprofit, but still using a lot of business development and marketing skills, helping homeless people gain employment, and get quality jobs and keep them and break the cycle of poverty. And that was really rewarding work and was really challenging. And I worked on helping them actually get the interviews and getting them connected with the business, a lot of you know top businesses in the Chicagoland area. And then my wife and I moved to Costa Rica to serve in the Peace Corps. We were we were working with small business owners, and helping kind of grow their entrepreneurial ventures and diversifying income on a small island in Costa Rica, where otherwise there wasn't really, you know, sources of income outside of just the local fishermen. So we helped kind of diversify the economy there. And actually, during that time, I went down kind of the like, personal finance and investment rabbit hole and started looking into equities and then got into crypto, kind of the end of 2016. And then by


middle of 2016, I was really kind of deep in the crypto space and I found it. I started the community for salt lending, which is one of the first crypto lending protocols and kind of before all the big sci fi lenders came on later. And like Erik Voorhees was an advisor for that. So I kind of bootstrap the community there. And then I ended up


leading marketing and management for a few other different crypto projects. Block Party was the first ticketing agency using NFTs to do ticketing for events. And then ultimately I started I've been working in the cosmos I led Sentinel, which was a decentralized


bandwidth marketplace, so that you can create decentralized VPN. So I I'm in from that experience, I found out about say early on and immediately got connected with the team to help us in our inner international growth and build out our community.


Okay, great. Thank you. So this is the first poolside episode of 2023. So let's recap a little bit. What was your most exciting things happening? What do you got?


You consider it to be the most exciting things that happened for the industry? In 2022? It's hard question.


And I'd say it's the same blockchain coming to life. No, but I definitely do think that it was a is a really big development, and it's gonna really help, grow DeFi. But I think one of the biggest things that happened to crypto by far was the eath merge. And that changed, that was a huge technological feat that a lot of even, you know, top technologists and researchers were questioning and we're not sure how it would be


how it would be executed. And there's, you know, huge implications for the network, especially maintaining, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of value on it at the time.


So making a successful merge, and bringing eath to proof of stake, I think, move the whole entire industry of four forward quite a bit. And now proof of stake networks, as we have seen, are


come to predominance and really dominate


almost all public blockchains except for, you know, a select few. And I think that helps for blockchain to be able to scale going into the future. So the eath merge is really great. And then, you know, I also think that despite Aetherium, being, you know, a separate ecosystem than, say, living in the cosmos, I really believe in a multi chain future. And I think that another really good development in 2022 was the emergence and actual like,


gaining product market fit of layer twos on Aetherium. I think that that was also very positive, because Ethereum will continue to be like a settlement layer for chains. But the Etherium ecosystem can continue to thrive. So for the ones we're not yet familiar with, say network, can you tell us what is what is it all about? Yeah, absolutely. So say is the A firt is the first layer one blockchain that is not uniquely a general purpose. L one blockchain like a Solana or an Aetherium, or a near or an app dose, and not just an application specific chain. That is a blockchain, you custom built for one application like a dy dx coming to cosmos or a osmosis. It's the first custom built sector specific blockchain that is purpose built for founders of DeFi projects, especially exchanges, and


trading applications, so that they have an unfair advantage. And they have a base layer infrastructure that's custom built for their purposes. So when you think of SE, you think you need to think of a layer one that is built for the next evolution of DeFi? And you say precisely, you've mentioned in your Twitter account, that say is optimized for DeFi? Can you introduce a few of your major advancements, like in simple terms, what does this mean? Yeah, absolutely. So we've done a lot of optimizations at the chain level, to create a blockchain that is purpose built for


exchanges in DeFi. And the reason behind that was actually the two of the co founders behind state labs, Jeff, Jeff Aang, and Jay jog, were both looking to build essentially in on chain, curbs protocol, and essentially build like Robin Hood, but do it on chain. And so J actually worked at Robin Hood, and it was a senior engineer building out their matching engine and their risk engine. And so really understood at a deep level, the


you know, significant product market fit and adoption of, you know, retail taking on trading, especially, like options, and that had never really happened prior to Robin Hood, he saw a huge opportunity to do so. But then


I don't know if you remember that there was, you know, that big,


big kind of chaos in the beginning of 2020. When Robin Hood like GameStop. They Yeah, shut down the trading of the shares. Yeah. And the reasoning I'll never forget that. Yeah, it's well, I still hold one GME stock, I refuse to sell it. I bought it in solidarity. And I gotta hold it forever. But just to always remind myself that the centralized markets are


you know, there's that we shouldn't be relying on a single player and we shouldn't be dependent on any centralized entity that's going to make decisions that completely impact, you know, the financial security of everyone else.


Definitely. So and but the problem was, it wasn't just


bad from our perspective, right.


From the outside perspective,


but from the inside perspective, J actually was there seeing it all go down at


Robinhood. And he said that even internally, there was very little,


very little transparency, there's very little communication. He's putting his name on the line representing this company, and then seeing what's happening and having no kind of understanding about


what decisions are being made or why. And then realize that there's significant issues in the the current piping and infrastructure of,


you know, traditional finance. And that pretty much immediately made him kind of an on chain and DeFi Maxie. So that was kind of his pivotal turning point. And from there, he decided he wanted to build a layer one or a DAX, optimized for trading.


And then him and Jay started him and Jeff started to look at the options at the time, you know, layer twos like arbitrage and optimism and


stark net on Aetherium, looking at Solana looking at near looking at Aptos and Suey, and they realized that all of those chains, were not really the true infrastructure that were needed to be able to see something like a decentralized Robinhood scale, and actually have the performance that Robin Hood had. And so kind of coming from first principles that thought the only way that this is actually going to work, and that DeFi is going to take a significant market share and like gain significant adoption is if we really build the infrastructure from the ground up for for that specific purpose. So


C's mission is shortened to shorten the unite the UX gap that Texas have, so that Texas can better offer a UX that matches, you know, what people are experiencing on by Nance around Robin Hood.


So that's the kind of backstory. And what we've done is we've built a native order matching engine into the chain, so that any DeFi protocol can leverage that and have order matching


optimizations built right into their protocol. And we've also built in a,




order book into that primitive into the chain as well. So any decks that wants to leverage the order book can have an inbuilt Orderbook from the base layer of the infrastructure. And then we've done a lot, a lot of other optimizations to minimize block times, we're seeing block times at around 700 600 700 milliseconds per block. And that is the time that funds are actually settled with finality. So this is the fastest time to be able to clear funds. And it's about three or four times faster than Solana and realizing that this is crucial if we're going to have


you know, significant adoption and trading execution on chain. And then ultimately, and we've also built in optimizations for us, like custom gasless transactions, and then we built in optimizations for MeV. And to prevent MeV. Like, free.


Freakin order batching. So we've done kind of a lot of optimizations and tweaks at the at the consensus level, as well as at the chain level to optimize for a high performance for exchanges.


Yeah, so basically, you figured out how to make on chain order book decentralized and fast with your new technology? What kind of new defi products are you expecting to build on? Say? Yeah, so that's one thing that we're definitely being very cognizant of is that stay, we're focusing exactly like you said, on the L one, and the infrastructure for all defi teams. And then we're going to have, you know, a wide variety of teams build on say, but it is a permissionless chain, so anyone can build on it. But we are being very cognizant of the fact that we're not trying to bite off more than we can chew. And so stay labs, we are not building out any of the core, you know, products on the top of the chain, but we have already had 100 teams that are building a wide kind of variety of defi applications come to say, so everything from


Orderbook taxes, whether those are, you know, perps or ammc or




like hybrid AM's to


gaming and gaming exchanges to


launchpads to


faults and different structured products to predictions markets, kind of the the gamut of DeFi and trading applications that you can imagine. A lot of them are already committed to building on say, and we'll see


See which ones gained significant, you know, product market fit. But we've kind of seen teams come from Solana from near from old taro teams, as well as


teams come from the cosmos ecosystem and eath teams that are building on L TOS that have decided to build their protocols on se. And can you give us some highlights on the how the current ecosystem looks like how many depths and projects are built on say? Yeah, absolutely. So I believe there have been about 40, like almost 50 teams that have been announced so far that are building on se. But there have been commitments from like over 100 teams, and a lot of them are kind of figuring out the time out that they want to deploy if they're going to deploy on test net. And then when they would start making those announcements, but there's definitely a lot more announcements to come.


And yeah, let me see. It's kind of constantly evolving. So I always have to like keep up. Let's see here, I have it pulled up. So we're looking at like bridges. So Britt, like on bridges, there's quite quite a few bridges that have kind of already committed AXELA is one of the bigger bridges within the cosmos ecosystem seller in the sea bridge, multi chain, gravity bridge.


And then DeFi applications. There's quite a few. So a few coming from Solana including cipher and Satori and


CA copycat. And then there's Eclipse as a launchpad. We've had several explorers like Commonwealth for governance and mint scan for on chain explorers. And then several infrastructure plays like Kado for


Fiat on ramping and Chi five,


and white whale for structured products. So there's been kind of quite a few different protocols. One thing I'm really excited about is Nitro, which is a roll up. That is building


the ability for on top of Solana so Solana development teams that are using the C level virtual machine and building their applications can natively deploy on say and get access to the cosmos and IBC. And so this is an opportunity for Solana devs to build and Roston have their native applications, but have those


execute on say as the blockchain. And so think of it as kind of like arbitration for Solana teams that want to get access to the cosmos. So there's a kind of a pretty wide variety of teams that have decided to build on say, and then


there's also several incubators that are looking to incubate teams and projects within the same ecosystem. That's great. What kind of strategies do you have in place for onboarding new developers and users and increasing the adoption of this ecosystem? Yeah, so there's quite a few different ways that we go about that. One is definitely just


sharing the narrative and having people understand what makes the say blockchain unique, what makes the say kind of what's what, who are the team, like the builders behind, say, labs, and why we're really highly technical, technically competent, and what we've done, you know, as an engineering feat, and in kind of customizing and building the say blockchain, and then also building up the narrative of what like, say, is looking to do as far as,


like, what we're looking to execute in 2023, how we're kind of growing a global community, having a wide reach, and then also leveraging our investors on on their reach and sharing the narrative. And then building out a kind of broad ecosystem of different projects, especially working with teams to understand what what are they looking to build and DeFi and what infrastructure makes the most sense for them to be able to execute and scale.


So a lot around the narrative. And then we're also working with specific incubators and launchpads.


Like Graviton is an accelerator focused in India, building out Indian entrepreneurs. We're working with another


accelerator and incubator program that's building out a strong group of entrepreneurs coming out of Nigeria, we're working with gravity, X and gravity X capital.


And then we're also continue to spread the message by doing you know, awesome opportunities to share like, like we have today with the bookstore community. So I think, really, what we want to do is make it really easy for any developer to get on boarded and integrate with building on say, and like deploying cousin wasn't smart contracts, but also getting to understand us as a team and the same ecosystem. We built out of, say builders chat that I think has a lot of the kind of developers and builders within the same ecosystem that is,


I think near like 300 members now.


And we we have like a really thriving and kind of awesome community. A lot of rock stars from the community are here and in spaces today and we have over 200,000 members in our Discord. That's already a big community. One question, did you already launch your main net? No. So we are on instead of assessment now called the tsunami test net. And we are in Malta, we have ongoing acts for development and testing of the chain. And actually, there's going to be a new blockchain rolled out in the next few weeks. Right now the blockchain that's being run on tsunami testing was called the Atlantic one chain. And we'll be rolling out Atlantic two, and continually doing like stress tests and tweaks. And


there were a couple of NFT mints on the SE blockchain and it was crazy, we're seeing like, over a million transactions per day.


And so we're really kind of pushing the chain to see kind of what it would be


what, what it's capable of and how it could function. And then we're looking to go on Main net by around the end of this, this first quarter. Okay, so meanwhile, how do you keep your community engaged, lots of different ways. So the community has been awesome. And several, you know, here Bojack, and war task Angelina.


A lot of people in this group here are part of our Atlantis, which is our international growth program is essentially like an ambassador program for but for people that want to continue to level up their skills in Web3, and share kind of unique content and be able to take a lot of agency and creativity and building up kind of how they share what's going on with SE.


And so that's been really cool to see Atlantis take off. We're at I think, over 2000, maybe 2400 members of Atlantis that are actively creating new content, but they're also doing really, really cool things. So they created savers, which is a Metaverse online game where people can navigate and connect with other sailors in the community and complete quests.


And, and they also are building really cool things like they made, say magazine.


They, you know, they went all out for the holidays and celebrated say Christmas. So it's been really cool to see the community kind of rise up. And a lot of awesome people in the community take leadership roles and make it really engaging. So that's been really cool.


And then we're also doing things like right now we are founder, Jeff is in Japan. And so we're putting on an event


tomorrow with dy dx, dy dx, on kind of the evolution of DeFi, and what are kind of the next steps that are happening in the industry. And then on Saturday, we're having our first in person community event in Tokyo. And I think well over 150 people have registered and it's already kind of oversubscribed. But it's really cool to see a lot of our communities


be able to meet up and we're kind of starting a say world tour where we can engage with people from the community all around the world.


So there's lots of different programs and things that we have going on. And then also on test net, there's just really cool things to do. So stress testing the chain, minting the,


say, dawn and dusk and fts. And like leveraging products that are already on test net, so there's kind of lots of different ways for people to engage and interact with the community. And even though we're not on Main net, we're trying to keep it fun and make it


you know, something unique for everyone to be able to participate. Yeah, that's awesome. Good thing, you have a very engaged community.


I think my next question is a little bit regarding one of the I think one of the most


talked about topics like security is very important at this point. So what advice would you give to DeFi users to protect themselves when exploring new protocols? Yeah, no, I mean, absolutely. And that's, again, why we're having a longer test net on say, we're really looking to explore kind of, you know, so many different varieties of potential situations and getting thorough audits and doing a lot of back testing and


understanding kind of how the network is going to is going to


operate and interact in a lot of different settings. And you cannot be careful, more careful enough. As you interact with defi protocols. The main thing is making sure that


you are like whatever front end you're engaging with the defi protocol, that it's established, and there's some recognition that it's the correct one, and that whenever


Every year connecting your wallet to some type of


wallet connect or engaging with the DeFi protocol, that you are ensuring that it's, you know, the accurate one. And that there are other users that have kind of come before you, and you've used it and proven that it's safe and secure. And the same goes with bridges. And then another thing too, is just out of like,


best practice, like, separate your funds into multiple different wallets. And keep some of your funds in cold wallets that you're not actively trading with. And keep those separate. And don't in don't interact with defi protocols with those wallets.


And just make sure that you're always kind of thinking about what are potential attack vectors?


And if you ever feel that something's not right, or you're not sure if like this,


that this front end looks right, or if or that, like, the instructions seem like they're requesting that you send funds. And that doesn't seem right, I definitely suggest you reach out to other people in the in the crypto community and get like a consensus opinion from people that you trust, before you engaged with defi protocols. Unfortunately, you know, whether it's sci fi or DeFi, there's always going to be someone that's going to look to exploit people and take advantage of people that are


less educated, and it's really disgusting. And the amount of like, Ron Paul's, and the amount of unethical actors, has been really frustrating, and I think, part of a hindrance for the adoption of DeFi, but when there's transparent protocols, and you can see where funds are going, and you can see that like, someone has a liquidation at a certain level. And then the smart contract auto executes that liquidation. That is so much more transparent and fair and such a more


like egalitarian system than the one that we were operating in, in centralized finance. So I'm really bullish on the development of DeFi, but yeah, security and taking,


taking, very proactive approach in your operational security and how you manage your funds is paramount. Yep. Great advice. I hope everybody was taking notes at this point. I know you're going to talk about this in your upcoming event. But maybe you can tell us a little bit about it as well. What is your perspective on how will DeFi look in 2023? Yeah, I think that, um, DeFi is kind of, you know, had a struggle for at least most of the 2022 You know, things like, tear going down. And then lack of confidence in like, our algorithmic stable coins. And Tara had one of the more robust defi ecosystems outside of Aetherium.


I think and then you can see across, you know, every blockchain TVL is have gone down. And that's partly a measure of prices and values of assets in those protocols going down. But then also, it's a matter of people that are engaging less than there's less trading volume, and there's less activity in defi protocols.


And I think that that is going to change, I think that that pendulum is gonna swing back. And I think that especially with things like, say, launching in 2023, there's going to be better infrastructure for DeFi to start to thrive. And so as you mentioned, like exchanges that want to leverage on chain order books are going to be able to do so and gain adoption, there's been some really bright spots and define in the past year, I think that


a good example is what's one of the one of the biggest defi protocols on arbitration that has


options, trading Geomax has been like a really good example of like, there's still a lot of demand and stickiness for


DeFi exchanges that like have a good UX and provide a good product. And I think that we're going to get better user experiences for defi applications with things like


you know, DY DX launching their own Cosmos chain, and having higher performance with things like say, being a infrastructure layer for products to be able to make better, you know, teams to be able to make better products that is closer match decentralized exchanges, with things like Geomax gaining adoption with layer two is gaining,


you know, throughput and better performance. So, overall, I'm bullish on a wider variety of applications in DeFi and better user experience. But one thing I you know, I can't promise to know is exactly what which types of applications are going to take off. Or, you know, what will be kind of the biggest net


narratives as far as like,


traders activity or lending or, you know, use new use cases kind of like steppin came in and became like a really popular application in 2020 and 2021


That's why I think that we're building in, you know, in production and vary and with open source, I think that there's going to be a lot of innovation that's, you know, created over the next 12 to 24 months. And then a lot of that will pick up with adoption, maybe more in 2024 and 2025.


But I'm really excited to see kind of where some of this innovation is, is a comment is getting created. And any advice on what is the best way to keep up with DeFi projects this year? Yeah, that's tough, right? There's always so many different places you can go. I mean, for sure. Well, you know, I would say that


the poker spaces is definitely a good


good place to start. I think that these are really cool. I also think that there's really good information just like using really good metrics sites like defi llama or getting information from Delphi digital or masari or


you know there's some really good you know, Twitter accounts where you that you can kind of like troll to find some of the best information on DeFi


let me think like, let me highlight a couple define is also really good block works is putting out some really really good content. I really think that if you look at block works, like their podcasts, so like Empire, or on the margin is really good. Empire is really good. unchained the Lord shins podcast is really good. And interviews, a lot of top defi teams for guidance and block works is really good. The bank was podcast also is kind of really tracking closely, the developments in DeFi Delphi Ventures has a really good podcast. So there's a lot of different resources that people have now. And I think that's one unique benefit, coming into kind of understanding the crypto landscape. Now in 2022, compared to learning it in 2017 2018, there wasn't really that many good resources. But now, there's tons of good educational content and in places where people can kind of get their hands dirty and continue to learn. Do you take time to listen to all of these podcasts? Do you have any routine to stay up to date?


I do, I do stay pretty up to date. And as much as I can. The main, the main time I listen to podcasts is when I'm working out. So if I'm going on a run, or I'm doing a workout,


that's definitely my time to kind of like decompress and listen to podcasts and like 1.5x and kind of soak up as much as I can. Yeah, for me the same thing, working out taking going for a walk. It's the best time. Okay, so my my last last question. Do you have anything other than DeFi? You're looking forward to in the Web3 space? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, I think sometimes we kind of pigeon holed defi into thinking of it as like, some front end, you know, automated market maker. So some front end purpose protocol or a,


you know, predictions market. But DeFi is really just the piping for assets to be able to flow on chain from one protocol or from one


wallet address to another. So I think what I'm really looking forward to is defi growing, but it not being kind of the obvious flavor of defi that we become accustomed to. I'm excited. And I don't think that this is going to necessarily take off with significant traction in 2022, or in 2023. But hopefully in 2024, and especially in 2025, I'm excited for defi to be the backbone for


consumer applications that we know today power, like powering them. So I really think that gaming is going to continue to grow. And there's going to be the ability to have assets flow natively between different games are ecosystems, and these assets, you know, will be able to be


brought, you know, withdrawn out of the game, and there'll be interoperable with in other games and have liquid market value. And that's a huge opportunity for gamers to be able to kind of


participate economically in the benefit and growth of these games. I'm also really excited for I think what will happen over some time is the growth of the social graph. And so you know, instead of leveraging your bent depending on Zuckerberg and Facebook and


you know, Twitter as the places that we engage with one another, and


there's a ton of value extraction from these centralized companies. I think that we're going to slowly evolve to a place where there will be


A couple of social networks that operate on chain


that gain traction. And that's going to be really cool, I think that's going to be kind of the biggest killer app is one of the either gaming or social the social graph growing on chain. So that's where I think that the opportunities are really powerful.


But you can have defi protocols in the background that's operating that. And what we really need is that these applications that we use, need to match the user experience that we have today, like, so many people use Instagram, because it's so easy to be able to leave a comment to be able to like to be able to see photos, and the it's a very snappy and just like simple UX.


And so we're going to need to be able to have that


experience if people are going to if we're going to have some type of social graph application take off.


And so we're going to need highly performant blockchains. And we're going to need to understand what needs to, you know, be settled on chain versus what could be settled on a roll up or could be settled, or could be like, what needs to be like, you know, posted to the chain. But I think that those are the types of use cases that are going to


really transform crypto from just being kind of like a speculative asset class that has a lot of potential to kind of seeing the Zero to One moment. And there's going to be social graphs built into a lot of applications, right? Like even Spotify, we think of it as like a music streaming application, but it's definitely a social app, and you can follow your friends on Spotify, you can see their activity.


I think that like we're going to even more and more hyper connected world. And when we're able to take agency and be able to participate economically, because of


you know, open source protocols and and on chain assets. That's where I think that we can take a lot more agency back on on the internet.


And I know that you know, crypto has been around for over a decade now. But these things don't happen overnight. And that's where I'm like, I just got really excited thinking about that and


bringing the power back to the consumer.


Yeah, definitely. Thank you for sharing all of this with us. You touched a very relevant point. Like we recently had an episode episode number 19 of the poolside podcast, we had an episode about user experience and how it is so important for Web3 adoption, and that it still needs to be improved.


So I think you've made a very good point about that as well.


Okay, so I think this is the this is the end of our, of our session with say Thank you, Dan, for joining us.


Yeah, no, awesome. I really appreciate it. This is this has been great. And Keith, thanks so much. For the time, it was great to be able to jump into the poolside spaces. Is there anything you want to say about say that we haven't touched on? Well, I would just really encourage people if you haven't been able to get a chance to dig into say much, go to our


go to our follow us on Twitter, but then also go to our


Discord, its discord.gg/se Sei. And we have, you know, amazing people in the community that that'll get you on board and, you know, give you information.


You know, we have tons of people from the SEO community that are here in spaces right now that are always, you know, really kind and willing to help.


So yeah, I would just first say follow us on Twitter. And if you think that, you know, defi is going to be important in the future. And then you think that says design architecture for building a better layer one for defi applications is interesting, then definitely come and join us in discord. And then there's a lot more and more ways to get involved with the community. And benefit is say we'll have not only an airdrop to different ecosystems, but there's opportunities to get a tokens by via participating in


our incentivize testing testnet we're actually allocating 1% of the total supply of say, tokens to test net rewards from because we really are looking to focus on security and stress testing the chain. So yeah, come connect with us on Twitter and get involved in our Discord. And then if you'd like to get more involved or join Atlantis, we'd be happy to have you.


Thanks, Ben. So as Ben mentioned, if you want to learn more about say, go to their Twitter profile, Discord channel and visit say network.io And if you have any topic or guests you would like to hear on the poolside podcast? Let us know. In case you missed this entire live session, make sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple and Google podcast channels and listen to this one and many other insightful episodes. I will see you next week. Bye bye. Awesome. Thanks so much, Kate. See ya.