Alex Schevchenko from Aurora


Hi everyone. Welcome to a new Poolside with Polkastarter session where we come together to share knowledge, and experiences with the community in an informal and conversational way. Thank you all for joining us in this episode together with our guest, we will be exploring the Aurora ecosystem. So Aurora is an Ethereum virtual machine that spun off NEAR protocol, and that could be the future of blockchain interoperability. So today we have with us Alex Shevchenko, CEO of Aurora. Hope I said everything right, Alex.


Yeah, absolutely. 


Thank you. Well, don't forget that you will be able to claim an exclusive OAT for the first 300 valid emails submitted. And after the session, sign up on Galxe to grab your OATs. So welcome, Alex. First of all, could you please introduce yourself?


Yeah, hello, everybody. So as it was said, I'm the CEO of Aurora. This is a development company that is behind the development of the Aurora protocol. My background too comes from Tech. I'm a PhD in applied physics and math, I was doing calculations on the biggest computers in the world. And then paved my way directly into this space where lots of computers are actually working on the same problem of ensuring that there is a trust layer in between them, which is the blockchain. So for around seven years, I'm working in blockchain and just fascinated of the tech and want to stop and want to continue building


So what can you tell us a little bit about Aurora? How did Aurora begin? How does it approach Web3 differently from other blockchain platforms?


Sure. So Aurora started two and a half years ago as a project inside of the NEAR protocol. As you know, NEAR is a Layer 1 protocol that is focused on  scalability, there are also some additional features of NEAR protocol. But the core part of the of the market value for NEAR protocol is scalability, though, in order to achieve the scalability, NEAR sacrifices the backwards compatibility with Ethereum, which means that the runtime or the pace or the virtual machine where the smart contracts are executed, is written in absolutely different way. So you are not able to launch your solidity smart contracts there. And quite fast, it was discovered that this is actually the problem. And you need to have a solution that will allow all of the existing theory applications and tools to be operable in this new environment. So because of these two projects started on NEAR one is the Rainbow Bridge, or the trustless and permissionless bridge in between Ethereum and NEAR protocol. And the second one, the second project was called just the EVM, we wanted to launch an EVM solution that would allow third parties to run their smart contracts and their solidity smart contracts on NEAR. So that was the original idea. But pretty quickly, we figured out that well actually this is a little bit more than just some kind of set of letters that we need to throw in the faces of the developers and users that it's better to have a separate brand on this. And actually it's better to have a separate ecosystem and run it as a separate company. So this was an absolutely straightforward move. The more focused on the decentralization move that was helping to decrease the size of the team which means that increase the speed of the movement of the teams. So we kind of parted with NEAR. So we spun off Aurora as a separate company around one and a half years ago. And after, right after, two things happened. First one Rainbow Bridge was deployed and second one Aurora network started. These happens in spring 2021. And Aurora network is operational for, as I said, one and a half years. The relations in between Aurora and NEAR are extremely good and super tight. Literally 10 minutes ago I was speaking with, with Ilia, the CEO of NEAR.


So how do you prioritize and select which technologies and protocols you integrate in the ecosystem?


Yeah, So for the developers, Aurora looks and feels like yet another EVM chain. So we have been working tirelessly on making sure that it is 100% EVM compatible. So all of the tools that developers required to have are deployed and integrated, right. We even have ETH as a base token on Aurora. So it's not our own token, that is used as a base token, right? We just wanted the migration process to be as easy as possible. Now, with regard to the tools that we are integrating, we usually, we usually ask in our ecosystem, we're just just checking with them what they want, right? Pretty early. People were saying that, okay, we need to have an Oracle solution. And, and better if we have multiple Oracle solutions, in order for us to be able to get a chance of choosing between them, which is better, or even kind of combine both of them or multiple of them, in order to have better, better prices and better data. So right now, with Aurora, there are like three Oracle solutions integrated network. And many others. Unfortunately, Chainlink is not yet integrated. However, they are considering their integration. Hopefully, I'm actually waiting this week, a reply from them on the integration. And you know, other tenderly and other other tools that developers are usually asking for, this is what this is what we're getting this, we're getting this feedback from the developers and trying to integrate all the tools with regard to the projects that are deployed like Aurora is permissionless. So it's not like we're deciding whether to integrate or not. Everyone is able to work with the Orion in the 40 permissionless model.


Okay, cool. So you've mentioned asking what the community wants. And I understand you have a great community and you tried to be very transparent and keep your community updated on every milestone. So can you tell us a little bit how important it is to have a strong community and what role does the Aurora community play in your ecosystem?


Yeah, it is super important. In general, as we all share the values of the blockchain, the values of decentralization and transparency as the means to achieve this level of trust between parties, we obviously do the same things. And we are acting in accordance with this rules. That's why for example, just recently, because of the FTX, crash, we posted a full transparency report on exposure to FTX. And additional parties that have been affected by this. So community for us is extremely important. And we actually have a separate grant program there. We have two grants programs. One is for developers, and another is for communities. For people that are not coding. However, they are able and they are willing to create content, educate others and just just share the knowledge about or or with others. And this is a set of absolutely separate programs, and anyone in the world is able to participate in this. It is extremely simple. It's just about writing your idea on the Governance Forum. And then and then people from the Dow are going to review this and allocate the budget for you in case it makes sense. So in case you're wanting to enroll in a rural community, that's the easiest way to do it.


Yeah, that takes me to my next question. So what is this? What is the current state of adoption for Aurora? And how do you plan to support and foster the growth of the Web3 developer community? So what kind of strategies do you have in place for onboarding new users, even those who come from a Web2 background and increasing the adoption of this particular ecosystem?


Yeah, thanks for this question. In terms of the adoption I would not lie, you're kind of a challenger, I would say for the top blockchains including Ethereum rights. So, the amount of activity that has happened in Aurora is comparatively small with this with these blockchains So, we have something like, like 15,000 monthly active users that are participating in the Aurora ecosystem. So, we still need to grow this, this amount. However, we have a pretty straightforward way to do it. There are two specific differentiating points for Aurora right that makes Aurora something different than comparison with other EVM solutions, right. This is not something that is typically implemented by other blockchains because like, in case you are going to take a look at for example, polling on their blockchain is well, just a blockchain there is not there is nothing, nothing that is special about it. So we see our focus. In Aurora, our focus is in two domains. First domain is user experience. And the second domain is obviously scalability. This is inherited from the neural blockchain, right? So with the first part, we really believe that and I personally, really, really believe that it is not about the war against monster blockchains, right. Actually, people who were trying to disrupt our web two companies, right, and we're trying to educate people that the world can work in a different manner. But in order to educate them, we need to compete with web two companies also, in terms of the user experience, in case blockchain will continue to be as complicated as it is, right now. Nothing even even, you know, a little bit close to mass adoption is not going to happen. And because of this, we're going to, we're going to, we are all going to die. And because of this, we believe that it's super important. It's super important to improve the user experience. Right. And, and this is, this is the first thing that we're focusing on, I encourage everyone to check out Aurora dot plus, this is one of our solutions that is focused on the better user experience. It allows for anyone with the web to kind of background within one minute into Aurora without the necessity of doing KYC, buying crypto and being able already to transact. We are even going to improve the solution and in a couple of months, we will have a new release of something that is completely mind blowing. And obviously, the second part is, is the scalability, as I said so pretty quickly on this, any EVM blockchain, any EVM based system is fundamentally limited is not scalable, it cannot process the 1000 transactions per second everybody who will ever person who's saying to you that that's not the case, he's lining your face. The reason for this is that EVM is fundamentally synchronous, you are not able to paralyze EVM. And even if you would be able to do then you have this centers of gravity, the smart contracts that are commonly used like uniswap smart contract in in the theorem and in you are not able to parallelize the execution of the of the transaction so, so in order to in order to scale but however, if we're going towards the mass adoption, if I go into have at least 100 million users onboard to the blockchain, then it is going to be a problem right? So scalability is necessary and the only way to scale something that is not scalable well is just to have liquid. With more copies of this thing that is not scalable, we really need to have many EVMs to work, right? So we are working in this direction and enabling this scalability for the EVM solution. We have our own approach for this. And hopefully pretty soon you're going to hear about the first companies that are using this approach.


Yep, I want to go back a little bit to one of the first things you said about the user experience. So a few years ago, a few weeks ago, we hosted an episode with Georgia Rakusen. She's a UX researcher. And the topic was about how Web3 user experience still sucks and needs to be improved. So I wanted to ask you, since you've mentioned it, what is the importance of UX in Web3? And what role does it play in your platform and your main goals?


Oh, this is, as I said, this is one of our key points that we're focusing on right now. I'm 100% on board with this thesis. And as a blockchain community, we really, really need to focus on this and really need to do it. And literally, we need to move down the stack. All of the kind of blockchain complexity. Nowadays, when you're opening YouTube, you do not think about TCP IP protocol and all of the, you know, handshakes that you need to do with YouTube servers and all of that stuff. You just looked at something there in an address that is green, which means that you're going to secure and everything is good. And in case it is red, then probably there is a problem. And then somebody needs to fix it. That's it. This is how TCP IP stacks work. Stack reworks, like now and people are not taking care of it. Why? Why on earth, we think more users of the blockchain need to think about guest fees, priorities, priority fees, speeding up the transactions in case they are stuck, and so on. This is for sure. Needs needs to move really, really down the second only, only, you know, super hardcore members of the blockchain should be thinking about it.


Yeah, definitely. So in September, the Ethereum network merge happened. And I wanted to ask you, what were the main implications for Aurora? And did you see any big shifts in behavior?


Yeah, so in general, the merge, the only thing that changed in the merge is the consensus algorithm, right? So for the majority of the projects that are working in Ethereum, literally, nothing has changed. And in general, the merge was marketed also that way that while there is nothing that you need to do, maybe we're going to pause our smart contracts for for a little bit, making sure that the network is stable, and then turn them back on. For us, it was hell. Because the way how rainbow bridge are one of the parts of our solution works. It really, really depends on the consensus algorithm of the Ethereum main net. The reason for this is that the rainbow bridge, as a set, is a permissionless bridge, there are no validators of the preacher and there is nobody who is approving transactions going over the bridge. The way it works is that we literally implemented it in an Ethereum, node Ethereum light client, as a smart contract on NEAR blockchain. And what this lifetime does, it consumes all of the Ethereum blocks, it validates them according to the consensus algorithm. And in case there is a transfer or there is some kind of data that is transmitted from a theorem to NEAR or aura, then then something is happening on the NEAR or right. So this is the point. The main problem is that we needed to completely rewrite the light clients for Office cerium. And that's the problem because well, the light client is a complicated thing. And it was written as a smart contract on your blockchain, probably one of the most complicated smart contracts in the world. And now we needed to redo it because obviously, the move from proof of work to proof of stake is a drastic move. Because now in Ethereum, we have beacon chain, we have the execution chain, we have all of these different things and yeah, things were pretty hard for us as developers, right? But, we've survived, we audited the code. For the rainbow reach, we delivered the updates in time, everything was going as expected. So, so super good. For us. Again, no problems with the Rainbow Bridge.


Awesome. Thank you for sharing that with us. So in the last year, I've seen you have announced some partnerships with companies like consensus can balance the graph, among many others. Can you discuss some of our risky partnerships and collaborations within the Web3 space, and how they contribute to the ecosystem's growth?


Yeah, so all of the ones that you listed here are pretty important for us. So obviously, consensus and, and their set of products, including fewer and Metamask. And their offer ability or interoperability with Aurora chain is super important for us. So it is much easier for the developers to work with Aurora, since they are able to use the same familiar tools for developing the graph. These are obviously indexing services. So these are probably to cover in around 90% of all of the index and solutions that are used in Ethereum. At this moment, all of the rest are kind of self made indexes and solutions. Some companies like open safe, by the way open, see doesn't have their own, they have their own indexing solution. So yeah, this is super, super important for the majority of the applications. And also, one additional key partner, I would say that we have is, is ether scan. Again, because the developers are super used to Etherscan interface. And also just to test in and verify testing their smart contracts and verifying the code of the smart contracts in ether scan interface. I am a big fan of this product too. So we have this, this partnership and there is a separate deployment of ether scan for our network and you're able to find it at all rescan dots. So yeah, these are key partnerships that I see there are quite a lot of other collaborations and, and quite a lot of them to come with this new things that we're launching pretty soon. And yeah, for us, these partnerships are vital, because these partnerships enable our ecosystem to grow. And yeah, usually developers are extremely happy with all of this stuff that is happening with all of these tools that are available.


Yeah. So what is your governance model? And how does it support the growth and sustainability of a Web3 ecosystem?


Yeah, that's a great question. So, from the very beginning, we decided that as I said, that we need to be aligned with the decentralization principles. So, so, the first thing once once the company the development company was spun off from the Neo development company, the first thing that we did is these we will achieve the community to organize the Dow that is going to kind of manage the protocol and the way how down works for Aurora is the following the raw there are these people or like the the people or companies that are treated as councils of the doubt right. So, you can think of this as a kind of Parliament four or a four is a country. So there is this Parliament of the several members and these people are actually have in their day to day job in moving normal refold these people obviously were the most active people in the Aurora ecosystem, mainly they can they are consisted of, of early backers of Aurora and and the Dow decided that well, yes, that's that's good in case you have like 13 council members, but it is not decentralized enough. It is not enough to say that there is a proper decentralization though it is a good start. So So what Dallas suggested is to launch and an aurora token and make make the kind of introduce like a proof of stake Model, they're in the security or in the governance model of the chain, where people are staking auroral tokens they're earning in return, so called vote tokens, and these vote tokens, so the more you stake and the longer you stake, the more vote tokens you're given, then, and then this vote tokens are used in order to elect Tao councils on the next elections. So from the standpoint of the ordinary Western democracies, well, that is an absolutely straightforward way of enabling governance in the country. So kind of people are not, like ordinary citizens who do not take decisions on a day by day basis, though, instead, they are elected parliament and precedent and all of this stuff. So this is how the governance is working. And we're all talking governance token. Okay, cool.


Now, we're going to focus about building a powerful ecosystem in Web3, from your experience. What are the main challenges you see in building a robust and scalable ecosystem?


Yeah, that's, a great question. I do believe that. So it's super easy. The answer to this question is very, very different from market to market case where everybody is focused on their profits and stuff like that, in case there were in the, in the bear market, which is the case right now. Many people are just exiting, and many people are super disappointed. And yeah, they're losing faith. So for these times, in which we are particular in the moment, it is super important to from one end to find people that are that are thinking alike, and that there are stains in blockchain but not in crypto, I would say. So, the vetting, they're really having these values of the blockchain instead of only values of defy and all of this additional extra financial benefits that you're getting from cryptocurrencies. So, this is one thing, right. So, try to find the people who are attending and the same things as you write for me again. Blockchain is important, crypto is kind of secondary. This is one thing, but the second thing is also trying to find new people who are actually thinking about the same thing. So the exposure to blockchain crypto in comparison with the previous bear market is insanely bigger. Now everybody is willing to do something with the blockchain. And actually some people from Web2 are educated enough about Web3. So you are able to onboard these people if their onboarding experience will be great. And maybe they are going to become your, your army, or people from your community. That though, unfortunately, I must say that, in general, I do not believe in protocol communities in the long run. I don't think that five years from now we are going to see the Aurora community or Polygon community or something like that. It is pretty strong. Like, the reason for this is simple. Like, do we have the internet community right now? Well, no, we have a World of Warcraft community. Yeah, these are people who are kind of playing World of Warcraft, we have a tick tock community, these people that are making short videos, right, and things like that communities usually are formed around products and not protocols. And from that standpoint, like the reason why we have communities right now, around protocols is that these protocols are bringing financial incentives for people. So these are the communities of investors. I think that these communities can stay in this niche. But in terms of the big adoption and the big, give in just just the sizes of community, we will see the shift towards the actual end user products and communities and random.


And how do you plan to tackle this? This shift? So you're saying you're basically not going to have a community like you have today?


No. So here like, and here, here is inequation. We're bringing this additional differentiating points, right? The points of having better user experience and Aurora plus right and additional products that we're going to do so. So the portal forward for Aurora is not only having just the generic blockchain, but also launch several products that are working on top of this blockchain. And while we will be able to kind of have separate smaller communities around this product, but I also see that additional companies that are going to work on top of Aurora, they are going to have their own communities too. And then I expect that there will be some set of people that are kind of interested in the politics of Aurora, I would say, and these people are going to be active participants in the Dow, they will be actively looking at what the council's are doing, analyzing their decisions, and criticizing them. So and you know, maybe making revolutions and stuff like that. So yeah, this is gonna be the politically active part of people. It's not for everybody. But this is going to be a separate community. That is that is very, very interested in governance. So keeping my fingers crossed for this to pick up on recently as a Ukrainian I was involved into very high stakes political games that are happening on the globe right now. And unfortunately, I need to admit that it would be better for me if I would be involved in politics much sooner than the end of winter. This year, maybe it will help me to make the proper decisions early on.


So this takes me to my next question. What are our long term plans and goals for the future?


Yeah, countries of the world can answer. So our plans, our plans are simple. The Oracle Apps team is fully focused on building our things, we are so glad that the bear market started, we are completely focused on building, we're not getting distracted by scammers, the amount of scams around us, decreased a lot. And I think that this is naturally happening across all the different ecosystems. So that's good. As I said, we like our next release within a couple of months, which is the release of a new product that is focused on the user experience. On this user experience path, Heaven or or a plus and this new product, would Mar and heaven, this release would kind of complete our direction to what was the kind of the setup for this direction, obviously, we will be able to iterate on this and make and move on with this stuff. But that's in terms of like, I can say that, okay, this direction is done. And now we're going more in the maintenance mode. And then to kind of add in additional features. Now with regard to the scalability, we still need to launch some additional things, and we're still in development mode. I do believe that within the next half a year, for sure, we are going to finalize these things and actually, actually, we're probably going to launch this product in probably even in three months. So this would be again, a chapter that is going to be closed and put into maintenance not and then after this for us it's it's only about growth and making sure that that we are a good good dev shop for the Dow and we are supporting the Dow initiatives, and and all the future there are initiatives so so there are multiple things that that are yet to be built. There are discussions in the community about building the community treasury, so a place that that is going to work something like Angeles or maybe Kickstarter, where community members would be able to vote I'm not talking about the council's of now I'm talking about all of the or community where people would be able to vote on on which projects to finance and we're where to allocate these funds from the community treasury. So there are tons of modules that are discussed there and the dev shop, we're happy to kind of support this initiative. Because it was actually planned from the very beginning or so this is a project for the future. But in terms of the midterm goals, or short term goals, I would say that we are mostly done with the development of the core components, and it will be all about chromium moving through the bear market, kind of helping others to take this. For us. It is not the first bear market. I've been through multiple already within the past seven years. So yeah, everybody just keep calm, everything will be okay. And back to normal.


Yeah, that's good advice. And I'm sure it will be very interesting. 2023. Can you tell us just a little bit about what key milestones and achievements of Aurora to date? What makes you really, really proud?


Yeah, absolutely. So it's everything started in March 2021 With the launch of the Rainbow Bridge, first EVM only to date trustless permissionless, generic bridge with Ethereum and other blockchain still nobody is even close to our achievement there. This is worse than when Aurora was launched exactly one and a half years ago in May 2021. After this in November, just a bit more than one year ago. Aurora Dao launched the token. So, even before this Aurora was formed, they decided to make a token and then the token was launched. So this is also a great achievement. And then in May 2022, this year, at least, this pretty advanced product, or a plus was launched. And I actually knew actually, even right now are able to take a look at the launch event of Aurora Plus. It is is a 20 Minute video quite nicely produced, you're able to find it on YouTube just to just Google Aurora Plus launch event. And in general, Aurora classes are available on the domain name Aurora Plus. So you will be able to figure out what it is, if you want. So yeah, these are probably the most important milestones. And hopefully in the next couple of months, we're going to have yet another one.


Yeah, so we've recently opened an accelerator program for Web3 founders in partnership with Poolside. And having helped more than 100 projects. We're not getting even closer to projects to bring more to our community. As a very experienced Web3 builder. Do you have any advice you would leave for Web3 builders? Like yourself?


Yeah, so I'm not quite sure like it is a pretty impressive amount of projects that you help with the fundraise. My advice to all of the founders, please make sure that you are building not on top of the startups. But on top of the kind of robust technology. It is about everything that you're using, in case you're thinking of writing your own indexer, please think again, maybe you need to just use the thing that is there. Is this your key value proposition, the indexer or it's just something that allows you to reach your goal, just by it in case it is not your key key value proposition focus on what's on your value. And so yeah, and try to use all of the tools that are out there that are the most robust, right. So from that standpoint, I can recommend the EVM that is working on Polkadot right, so maybe you can consider actually writing your code and insulating it.


Okay, thank you. Is there something in the Web3 space that really excites you right now?


Yeah. So I can tell you that I'm a little bit tired and a bit overwhelmed by all of these things, all of this drama that is happening.


So, recently,


yeah, have you seen that, like, there is a pretty nice, it was a nice event somewhere in Stockholm, I believe. They put a big red button and add a little drama. And then people were coming there and they're pressing that button, and then everything started to happen, you know, can I gum some girls on the bikes, you know, it wasn't an event, it was actually an advertisement for some kind of their version of a Netflix or something. So, yeah, something like that. So like the reason it's a bit too much drama. So saying, saying that I'm excited, I'm just starting. There is one thing that really picked me up in 2015. That really, really isn't my head, it's stuck in my head. I cannot do anything about it. So the first time when I heard about the blockchain, I thought that, well, if this is a trustless solution, where everything can be verified, well, the proper thing to do is actually to organize the proper governmental elections on the blockchain, because then, well, you are able to do at least as good as the current election systems are working. But actually, you're able to do even better because of ZK, and all of the additional schemes, you are actually able to make sure that third parties or candidates are not able to bribe the people who are participating in the elections, because these people will not be able to prove the fact how they have been voted on a particular on during this this elections. So, elections on the level of the countries, for Parliament's presidents and any other official positions, this is something that like just in my head, I hope, I hope that everything that I'm doing is making the moment in time when this is going to happen. And true democracy is going without any Asterix, and true democracy is going to be established, without any questions on the legitimacy of any politicians that are serving the countries. And in fact, the power will be in the hands of the people and not in the politician's hands. So that's something that is very deep in my head. This is something that energizes me every day when I'm doing anything for the blockchain.


Yeah, that is very, very interesting. Alex, thank you for sharing it. So we've come to the end of our session. Thank you. Alex, do you want to leave any final message before we close?


Yeah, probably somewhere in the middle. I was already saying this, but just a message to everybody about the market. Don't be afraid of this. In case you missed the first time when you experienced this in your experience in the bear markets, bear markets are helping to clean up the blockchain. What I saw in 2018 / 2017, it was just just insane, insane, crazy things happening. You know, new exchanges that were launching, they're doing, they're doing parties with half naked girls and all the stuff like that it was just crazy. Something like that was happening in the beginning of 2022. And it was pretty obvious then that that is going to come to an end. And look, everything is going to get back to normal for sure. Right. This cycle of bear and bull markets. This is something very typical to any economy. This is not specific to the blockchain, it is not happening because of how when Bitcoin, this is just something that is natural. People getting excited, and people getting upset on the staff and once they once they are upset and the next thing to the next. The next thing that is going to happen They're going to get back. Excited. And that's it. So keep calm, in case you're a developer, just continue to build in this tech is really something that is going to change the world. Like 100%, I'm fully sure with this stuff, in case your investor doesn't make any, any major moves. Please make sure that you are saying when you're doing any decisions. Also, also, please understand that, again, not a financial advice, but the biggest money are made exactly in the bear markets, because that's the moment in time, when you need to invest, you know, this rule, you invest when the price is low, and then you sell when the price is high. So that's the golden rule. Think of this, and just try to concentrate on positive things. In case you haven't lost us, I feel for you, but everything is going to get back fine. And things are going to be great. This is absolutely disconnected from Aurora. This is for everyone. Because I really, really believe that the blockchain community is actually united. Around and we need to be united, we need to stay strong, and fight our real enemies. Centralized web two companies that are making use of users and making use of, of everyone else who's, who's going to work in or excess in their ecosystems. These are our two enemies. Let's unite. Let's stay strong together. Let's move this tech. Forward. And you and eventually, we all get better.


Yeah, thank you. That's a very important message. And I just wanted to say I was listening. And I was thinking that what you just said really aligns with what most of my friends and colleagues that have been in the space for a longer time just like yourself, and they say the exact same things. So I think we should listen from the people who are more experienced and who are building serious products and projects in the Web3 space. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Thank you, Alex. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. So this is the end of the Poolside with Polkastarter. Thank you for joining us. If you have any topics or guests you want to hear on Poolside, let us know. This podcast offers engaging discussions, interviews with top industry leaders and experts on the world of blockchain technology. So subscribe now on Spotify, Apple and Google podcast platforms if you miss the live session. And yet, join us by the pool for some thought provoking conversations and insights and analysis on the latest trends in this rapidly growing space. Hit the subscribe button today. My name is Cate. I will see you next week. Bye bye